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[Music]

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hello

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and welcome to episode number 50 of the

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point of convergence podcast as always i

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am your host exo academian

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for getting on for 80 years now people

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have been trying to expose secrets kept

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under lock and key by deeply embedded

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so-called black ops programs within the

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government that many believe are holding

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back irrefutable evidence pertaining to

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knowledge of and interaction with

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extraterrestrial non-human intelligence

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these same people believe that when this

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secret is finally exposed to the world

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it will bring about revelations that

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will mark a key turning in the course of

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human civilization

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ushering in an era of intergalactic

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cooperation with a larger family of

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planetary civilizations

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of course that's for the people who

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believe that these others mean us good

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and are here as part of a peaceful

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mission to help us ascend to the next

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developmental level

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there are other people who agree that a

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secret is being kept from humanity

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but that this is in part because the

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news is not good that these others are

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dominator races whose aim is either to

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conquer us via overt means and

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technology that greatly eclipses our own

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or via some insidious plan that involves

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a hybridization program meant to turn

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humans into something else entirely

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but this picture still isn't complete

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because both of the above conceptions of

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what's going on

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tend to involve intelligences believed

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to be extraterrestrial in origin

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the thing is even when one looks at the

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evidence that exists as part of the

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literature behind the ufo phenomenon

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that's publicly available as a result of

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the work of tireless researchers over

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the last several decades

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it's not at all clear that what's being

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interacted with are solely off-world

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races who've traveled here via

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sophisticated spacecraft

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in fact even if one finds this topic

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because of a kind of sci-fi interest in

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advanced spacecraft and alien biological

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beings originating on some exosolar

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planet the data one comes across

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assuming one is diligently perusing the

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totality of the historical data that is

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quickly turns the picture ever more

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obscure and confusing

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and that's because while

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extraterrestrials definitely seem to be

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in the mix as it were the total picture

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is much more complex and multifaceted

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some find this complexity intriguing and

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inspiring while others are left feeling

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unmoored from what they used to believe

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to find reality as a result of these

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revelations

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with a fervor feeling inspired to

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explore elements of a clearly

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multi-dimensional reality that makes our

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former conceptions of reality look like

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child's play

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while others end up abandoning the

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endeavor altogether convinced that the

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more mind-bending aspects of the data

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suggest a mixture of human fraud ego

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mental instability and the like have

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painted a picture that can't possibly be

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true

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of course this exposes the fact that

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what we're willing to entertain as being

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part of the fabric of the larger reality

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says as much about who we are as

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individuals and as different cultural

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groups as it does about the true nature

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of all that is

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how are we to make sense of this

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disorienting complexity how are we to

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walk what some perceive to be a

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minefield of competing and mutually

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exclusive hypotheses regarding the

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origin and nature of these mysterious

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non-human others

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these are the very matters we'll seek to

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address in this the 50th episode of the

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[Music]

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as we begin this week's episode i would

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just like to say thanks for tuning in

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again here we are at episode number 50

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and whether you're a long termer who's

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been here since the beginning or you've

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arrived more recently

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welcome aboard this is a fascinating

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discussion a fascinating series of

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topics that are all connected somehow

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all form a point of convergence and

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that's exactly what we've been exploring

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over the last 12 months or so

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and when i say 12 months that's because

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coming up in about two weeks from now we

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will reach the one year anniversary of

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the beginning of this podcast and since

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that first podcast on that saturday

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afternoon i've done a podcast every week

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for 50 episodes in a row so that's

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something to celebrate i would say

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so today we're going to go a bit more

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macro view again we're going to step

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back from a close in micro view of

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specific cases and specific hypotheses

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and dial back and look at the big

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picture

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what's going on what's being observed

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how long has it been observed for and

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what are the collection of hypotheses

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put forward to make sense of this

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dazzling array of complexity that is

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equally intriguing as it is bewildering

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there are a couple of other things i

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would like to say at the outset

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first of all i think there's a very good

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reason why it's hard to reconcile the

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actions and activities of the

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intelligence behind the ufo phenomenon

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and that's because simply put it's not

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the same intelligence

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now while there are some researchers who

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would argue that perhaps this is the

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machinations of a single intelligence

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that just uses different disguises to

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fool us i personally don't think that's

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the best fit for the data we're seeing

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while perusing the totality of the data

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if you're able to establish different

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patterns that exist within that totality

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then to me the best fit for the data is

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that there are multiple intelligences

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interacting with us

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i think that's even more the case that

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that's a better supported perspective

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because we have no reason to believe to

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the contrary that there aren't numerous

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intelligences interacting with us

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in fact when you look at the full data

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not just based on those who are

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interested in extraterrestrials and not

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just those interested in the fae or

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those interested in interdimensionals i

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think it's clear that what we have here

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is a dizzying array of interaction with

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a cosmos teeming with life some in our

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dimension and some interdimensional some

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extra dimensional bottom line this is a

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very complex but fascinating picture and

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today we're going to look at some of the

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broad themes contained within that

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larger cosmic canvas

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now some of the matters we'll discuss

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today

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we've touched on on previous episodes of

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this podcast

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other elements will be new and they will

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be elements we will get to in greater

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detail in future podcasts

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rest assured you never run out of

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material for a topic such as this for a

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meta category such as the ufo phenomenon

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because there are so many elements in

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play it's a dizzying array of elements

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it really is and i still think we're

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coming to grips with exactly what's

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involved

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so let's touch on that let's touch on

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some of the elements that are part of

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the bigger picture that we should keep

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in mind when we try to make sense of the

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data observed

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one thing that's fascinating about this

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topic and i talked about this in the

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very beginning of this podcast

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is the crossover between not just ufos

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and aliens but also various aspects of

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the sci spectrum demonstrated by human

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beings here we talk about telepathy

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clairvoyance telekinesis abilities such

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as that

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evidence clearly suggests human beings

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do have these capacities some in greater

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order than others but everyone has it to

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some degree and this suggests we have

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something more in common with these

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others than many first believe it is not

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necessarily alien to be telepathic

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whatsoever if it were we would not be

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able to understand them when they did

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communicate with us telepathically

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that alone suggests there's something

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cosmic connecting them and us

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something else that's fascinating is

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that out-of-body experiences and

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near-death experiences involve elements

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that cross over with the ufo phenomenon

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again very fascinating and surely this

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is telling us something about the very

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fabric of reality

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for instance as i pointed out before

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when human beings come into contact with

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these others in a kind of alternate

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realm that might be on board a ship or

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it might be in some alternate reality it

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might be in a different state of

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consciousness but whatever the case

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human beings are brought into awareness

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of a broader conception of who they are

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in other words who we are and as i've

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said before this is the x factor in this

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discussion we so often are quick to jump

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to who are they where do they come from

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but i think an equally important factor

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is the question of who we are and where

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we come from and how are we related to

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those others when people come into

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contact with some of these others that

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we call aliens or when people have

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near-death experiences or sometimes

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out-of-body experiences

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they experience a broader conception of

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who they are

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and sometimes while we're used to

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thinking of lives being lived either one

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and that's it or sequentially in kind of

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a notion like reincarnation often what

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people perceive is more of a parallel

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lives kind of reality and here we should

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remember that time as we perceive it

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linear and unidirectional is as einstein

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put it merely a persistent shared

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delusion

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now at the outset i made it clear that i

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believe the evidence suggests there are

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multiple intelligences involved and not

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just that but multiple different origin

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stories

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some are coming from other planets quite

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likely within our universe within our

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dimension you might say

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others are coming from different

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dimensions

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and some are coming from outside of a

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space-time construct altogether

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what's funny about human research into

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these kinds of matters is that people

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tend to divide into different

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subsections and focus only on that

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specialty

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largely because they assume it is

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unrelated to other specialties and

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ironically often many of these

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researchers in each of these groups kind

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of silently judge the others believing

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that those investigations and those

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endeavors those domains of reality are

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somehow less important or perhaps not

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real at all that's one of the main

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mistakes being made and regularly so

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calm kelleher and george snapp talked

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about this when they discussed matters

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at skinwalker ranch where you clearly

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have a bizarre assortment of

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interactions with various phenomena

283
00:11:17,110 --> 00:11:15,120
including different phenomena that we

284
00:11:18,310 --> 00:11:17,120
didn't use to think as being somehow

285
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connected

286
00:11:22,230 --> 00:11:20,079
this is what these two had to say in

287
00:11:24,150 --> 00:11:22,240
regards to their experiences and their

288
00:11:25,190 --> 00:11:24,160
findings at a place like skinwalker

289
00:11:26,069 --> 00:11:25,200
ranch

290
00:11:28,870 --> 00:11:26,079
quote

291
00:11:30,710 --> 00:11:28,880
in the future an adventurous sociologist

292
00:11:33,750 --> 00:11:30,720
might consider writing a paper that

293
00:11:34,870 --> 00:11:33,760
examines the caste system in anomalies

294
00:11:45,670 --> 00:11:34,880
research

295
00:11:47,069 --> 00:11:45,680
regard the cryptozoologists with

296
00:11:49,030 --> 00:11:47,079
contempt

297
00:11:50,790 --> 00:11:49,040
cryptozoologists who embrace the

298
00:11:52,550 --> 00:11:50,800
possibility of a paranormal connection

299
00:11:54,310 --> 00:11:52,560
of bigfoot sightings are generally

300
00:11:56,550 --> 00:11:54,320
viewed with derision because of the

301
00:11:59,110 --> 00:11:56,560
prevailing view that sasquatch is an

302
00:12:01,110 --> 00:11:59,120
undiscovered primate species not an

303
00:12:02,790 --> 00:12:01,120
interdimensional playmate of alien

304
00:12:05,190 --> 00:12:02,800
beings

305
00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:05,200
likewise the paranormal researchers view

306
00:12:09,509 --> 00:12:07,680
the ufo researchers with disdain while

307
00:12:11,910 --> 00:12:09,519
the ghost hunters keep their distance

308
00:12:15,030 --> 00:12:11,920
from everybody else and all of this

309
00:12:17,670 --> 00:12:15,040
hostility and contempt is a vain and so

310
00:12:20,470 --> 00:12:17,680
far unsuccessful attempt to earn a small

311
00:12:23,670 --> 00:12:20,480
measure of respect and acceptance and

312
00:12:25,990 --> 00:12:23,680
maybe funding from mainstream science a

313
00:12:28,150 --> 00:12:26,000
lofty but unlikely goal

314
00:12:30,790 --> 00:12:28,160
so how does one go about modeling the

315
00:12:33,949 --> 00:12:30,800
range of more than 100 phenomena that

316
00:12:37,509 --> 00:12:33,959
occurred on the ranch between 1994 to

317
00:12:39,670 --> 00:12:37,519
2004 unquote so that really paints the

318
00:12:41,269 --> 00:12:39,680
picture in a nutshell you've got these

319
00:12:43,269 --> 00:12:41,279
different groups focusing on different

320
00:12:44,870 --> 00:12:43,279
specialties and not even necessarily

321
00:12:47,509 --> 00:12:44,880
believing that the other specialties

322
00:12:49,190 --> 00:12:47,519
even deserve any attention at all and

323
00:12:51,430 --> 00:12:49,200
many not considering the possibility

324
00:12:53,030 --> 00:12:51,440
that somehow this is all connected that

325
00:12:55,509 --> 00:12:53,040
all of these different threads must

326
00:12:57,910 --> 00:12:55,519
somehow weave together in some meta

327
00:12:59,910 --> 00:12:57,920
conception of reality

328
00:13:02,230 --> 00:12:59,920
in that quote i just read from george

329
00:13:03,430 --> 00:13:02,240
knapp and colm kelleher it was also

330
00:13:04,870 --> 00:13:03,440
mentioned that these different

331
00:13:08,069 --> 00:13:04,880
researchers in these different

332
00:13:10,949 --> 00:13:08,079
specialties are hoping for funding and

333
00:13:13,829 --> 00:13:10,959
perhaps respect first and foremost from

334
00:13:15,910 --> 00:13:13,839
the larger scientific establishment

335
00:13:19,030 --> 00:13:15,920
as they hinted at there that's tough

336
00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:19,040
going because so much of these phenomena

337
00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:21,760
simply exist outside the conceptions

338
00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:23,920
that most mainstream scientists are even

339
00:13:30,069 --> 00:13:27,279
willing to entertain as being possible

340
00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:30,079
if we wait for mainstream science which

341
00:13:34,949 --> 00:13:32,480
is reductionistic and materialistic to

342
00:13:36,550 --> 00:13:34,959
get on board we will not get anywhere or

343
00:13:39,189 --> 00:13:36,560
if we do get somewhere it will be

344
00:13:41,430 --> 00:13:39,199
decades into the future as much as it is

345
00:13:42,710 --> 00:13:41,440
tough sledding for now we have to be

346
00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:42,720
pioneers

347
00:13:47,590 --> 00:13:45,440
and i salute those who are the osap

348
00:13:49,269 --> 00:13:47,600
investigation which we recently covered

349
00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:49,279
when we talked about skinwalkers at the

350
00:13:54,949 --> 00:13:52,160
pentagon over two episodes is a great

351
00:13:57,509 --> 00:13:54,959
example where they recognized because of

352
00:13:59,670 --> 00:13:57,519
historical research that this somehow

353
00:14:02,629 --> 00:13:59,680
needs to be studied together because so

354
00:14:04,550 --> 00:14:02,639
many of these phenomena co arise in

355
00:14:06,790 --> 00:14:04,560
other words why should we research

356
00:14:08,629 --> 00:14:06,800
bigfoot and ufos

357
00:14:10,389 --> 00:14:08,639
well because they so often end up

358
00:14:12,069 --> 00:14:10,399
appearing together that's happened

359
00:14:13,910 --> 00:14:12,079
numerous times at a place like

360
00:14:16,069 --> 00:14:13,920
skinwalker ranch and that's certainly

361
00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:16,079
not the only location that's experienced

362
00:14:20,790 --> 00:14:18,720
those kind of colorizing phenomena

363
00:14:22,710 --> 00:14:20,800
now speaking of our society and the way

364
00:14:24,310 --> 00:14:22,720
we think about reality we just talked

365
00:14:25,750 --> 00:14:24,320
about how mainstream science doesn't

366
00:14:28,069 --> 00:14:25,760
think many of these things are even

367
00:14:29,750 --> 00:14:28,079
possible therefore why would we bother

368
00:14:32,150 --> 00:14:29,760
investigating them

369
00:14:34,949 --> 00:14:32,160
we should be aware of cultural templates

370
00:14:37,030 --> 00:14:34,959
and cultural taboos that's a key aspect

371
00:14:39,910 --> 00:14:37,040
of this discussion as well and often

372
00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:39,920
what a society considers possible is

373
00:14:44,230 --> 00:14:41,920
much more likely to be grounded into

374
00:14:47,430 --> 00:14:44,240
experience and therefore take on a new

375
00:14:50,069 --> 00:14:47,440
level of reality put succinctly as more

376
00:14:52,230 --> 00:14:50,079
people have anomalous interdimensional

377
00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:52,240
experiences while others become

378
00:14:55,189 --> 00:14:54,320
increasingly open to the possibility of

379
00:14:57,910 --> 00:14:55,199
them

380
00:15:00,710 --> 00:14:57,920
this in turn serves to ground this into

381
00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:00,720
our collective consciousness effectively

382
00:15:05,990 --> 00:15:03,120
increasing the likelihood of even more

383
00:15:08,069 --> 00:15:06,000
transit and interaction with various

384
00:15:10,310 --> 00:15:08,079
non-human intelligence

385
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:10,320
in other words our belief systems our

386
00:15:15,269 --> 00:15:13,040
conceptions of reality seem to play a

387
00:15:17,829 --> 00:15:15,279
role in what actually happens

388
00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:17,839
that's partly why you see some cultures

389
00:15:22,790 --> 00:15:20,160
around the world have a much longer and

390
00:15:24,230 --> 00:15:22,800
richer history with paranormal phenomena

391
00:15:26,230 --> 00:15:24,240
it's not because they just have more

392
00:15:27,110 --> 00:15:26,240
vivid imaginations and they're imagining

393
00:15:29,910 --> 00:15:27,120
things

394
00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:29,920
no rather they actually experience more

395
00:15:34,629 --> 00:15:31,920
because they have a template for it

396
00:15:37,110 --> 00:15:34,639
which invites it in grounds it which in

397
00:15:38,710 --> 00:15:37,120
turn increases the likelihood that more

398
00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:38,720
will happen there is a kind of

399
00:15:44,790 --> 00:15:42,560
relational dynamic here and it's two-way

400
00:15:47,030 --> 00:15:44,800
by the way the notion i just spoke about

401
00:15:49,829 --> 00:15:47,040
is not so out there it's not so

402
00:15:52,069 --> 00:15:49,839
unfathomable to the most cutting-edge

403
00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:52,079
versions of quantum physics

404
00:15:55,829 --> 00:15:53,600
of course in quantum physics we

405
00:15:58,230 --> 00:15:55,839
understand that somehow consciousness

406
00:16:00,790 --> 00:15:58,240
seems to collapse the waveform that the

407
00:16:03,189 --> 00:16:00,800
act of observation somehow changes

408
00:16:05,350 --> 00:16:03,199
reality resolves it into one thing over

409
00:16:07,910 --> 00:16:05,360
another you can think of that in the

410
00:16:10,310 --> 00:16:07,920
same way when we talk about mass thought

411
00:16:12,470 --> 00:16:10,320
mass conception of a culture and that

412
00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:12,480
that collapses into existence the

413
00:16:17,269 --> 00:16:14,800
possibility of some of these paranormal

414
00:16:19,350 --> 00:16:17,279
aspects of reality people like dean

415
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:19,360
raiden have also been involved in trying

416
00:16:23,749 --> 00:16:21,279
to spearhead what's been called

417
00:16:26,069 --> 00:16:23,759
post-material science even though raiden

418
00:16:28,389 --> 00:16:26,079
doesn't like that particular term but an

419
00:16:30,629 --> 00:16:28,399
increasingly broad collection of

420
00:16:32,790 --> 00:16:30,639
scientists are coming forward to say

421
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:32,800
listen the data supports a kind of

422
00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:35,040
science that must move beyond a

423
00:16:39,749 --> 00:16:37,680
reductionistic materialist paradigm

424
00:16:42,550 --> 00:16:39,759
we're only going to understand reality

425
00:16:44,150 --> 00:16:42,560
to greater degrees if we move past that

426
00:16:45,670 --> 00:16:44,160
and that's very exciting in terms of

427
00:16:48,069 --> 00:16:45,680
where things are likely to go in the

428
00:16:49,990 --> 00:16:48,079
future i think these paranormal subjects

429
00:16:52,870 --> 00:16:50,000
that have been considered fringe for so

430
00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:52,880
long will continue to be incrementally

431
00:16:58,470 --> 00:16:55,600
normalized until eventually they become

432
00:17:00,550 --> 00:16:58,480
part of mainstream science

433
00:17:02,389 --> 00:17:00,560
now speaking of aspects of this

434
00:17:05,270 --> 00:17:02,399
phenomenon and here i'm not speaking

435
00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:05,280
just of the ufo phenomenon but anomalous

436
00:17:08,949 --> 00:17:07,360
research in general because i think it's

437
00:17:11,750 --> 00:17:08,959
all connected

438
00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:11,760
speaking of that part of what confounds

439
00:17:17,510 --> 00:17:14,720
many people is how the beings interacted

440
00:17:20,870 --> 00:17:17,520
with the intelligences interacted with

441
00:17:23,669 --> 00:17:20,880
seem to cross back and forth between

442
00:17:26,630 --> 00:17:23,679
objective and subjective reality

443
00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:26,640
or a kind of energetic versus a physical

444
00:17:31,270 --> 00:17:29,360
nature they can actually bridge both of

445
00:17:34,230 --> 00:17:31,280
those modalities

446
00:17:35,909 --> 00:17:34,240
which of course in itself confounds our

447
00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:35,919
understanding of reality

448
00:17:40,870 --> 00:17:38,640
even though as i said once again quantum

449
00:17:42,870 --> 00:17:40,880
physics implied that that was likely the

450
00:17:44,870 --> 00:17:42,880
case that we would find entities like

451
00:17:47,270 --> 00:17:44,880
that in light of experiments that were

452
00:17:49,750 --> 00:17:47,280
conducted a hundred years ago

453
00:17:52,390 --> 00:17:49,760
but on this topic this is what john mack

454
00:17:53,350 --> 00:17:52,400
had to say about these kinds of beings

455
00:17:54,710 --> 00:17:53,360
quote

456
00:17:57,270 --> 00:17:54,720
the idea that we live in a

457
00:17:59,830 --> 00:17:57,280
multi-dimensional universe populated by

458
00:18:02,549 --> 00:17:59,840
beings or life forms that are less

459
00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:02,559
densely embodied than we are or perhaps

460
00:18:06,549 --> 00:18:04,559
not embodied at all

461
00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:06,559
is not new to eastern religious

462
00:18:10,710 --> 00:18:08,960
traditions or to most of the indigenous

463
00:18:13,430 --> 00:18:10,720
peoples of the world

464
00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:13,440
but it is not a cosmos that is familiar

465
00:18:18,310 --> 00:18:15,760
or accepted as existing by the

466
00:18:21,270 --> 00:18:18,320
scientific culture of western society

467
00:18:23,029 --> 00:18:21,280
which has perhaps once necessarily

468
00:18:26,310 --> 00:18:23,039
constructed a universe in which the

469
00:18:29,029 --> 00:18:26,320
material or psychological the seen and

470
00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:29,039
unseen realms have been kept largely

471
00:18:33,669 --> 00:18:31,280
separate so that the physical world

472
00:18:34,789 --> 00:18:33,679
might be understood and mastered in its

473
00:18:36,070 --> 00:18:34,799
own right

474
00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:36,080
unquote

475
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:37,840
and i think mac is really onto something

476
00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:38,720
there

477
00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:40,720
scientific materialism did have its

478
00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:42,880
place it has had its place it has

479
00:18:46,710 --> 00:18:45,120
allowed us to soar to some amazing

480
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:46,720
heights when it comes to understanding

481
00:18:51,590 --> 00:18:49,360
the natural world developing technology

482
00:18:53,190 --> 00:18:51,600
and medicine and whatnot but that is not

483
00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:53,200
to say that things haven't been lost

484
00:18:57,909 --> 00:18:56,160
along the way or that perhaps now we are

485
00:19:01,270 --> 00:18:57,919
in a period in our civilization's

486
00:19:03,510 --> 00:19:01,280
history when we can begin to reconnect

487
00:19:05,110 --> 00:19:03,520
some threads we left behind

488
00:19:06,870 --> 00:19:05,120
from my point of view we need a future

489
00:19:09,430 --> 00:19:06,880
that is not only technologically

490
00:19:11,750 --> 00:19:09,440
oriented but also shamanistically

491
00:19:14,630 --> 00:19:11,760
oriented if we could somehow merge those

492
00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:14,640
two i think that will be key to us truly

493
00:19:20,789 --> 00:19:17,520
breaking new ground that no civilization

494
00:19:23,110 --> 00:19:20,799
in human history has ever reached before

495
00:19:25,590 --> 00:19:23,120
now speaking of this kind of crossover

496
00:19:27,590 --> 00:19:25,600
nature this physical and non-physical or

497
00:19:30,310 --> 00:19:27,600
energetic and physical

498
00:19:32,310 --> 00:19:30,320
dual mode that these entities seem to

499
00:19:34,549 --> 00:19:32,320
possess or embody

500
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:34,559
patrick harper who wrote the classic

501
00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:37,440
demonic reality says something similar

502
00:19:42,789 --> 00:19:40,480
quote never quite divine nor quite human

503
00:19:45,430 --> 00:19:42,799
the demons erupted out of the soul of

504
00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:45,440
the world they were neither spiritual

505
00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:48,640
nor physical but both neither were they

506
00:19:55,110 --> 00:19:51,840
as young discovered holy inner nor holy

507
00:19:57,510 --> 00:19:55,120
outer but both they were paradoxical

508
00:19:59,830 --> 00:19:57,520
beings both good and bad benign and

509
00:20:03,430 --> 00:19:59,840
frightening guiding and warning

510
00:20:05,750 --> 00:20:03,440
protecting and maddening unquote

511
00:20:07,830 --> 00:20:05,760
as i pointed out earlier when some

512
00:20:09,909 --> 00:20:07,840
researchers who are used to our usual

513
00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:09,919
conceptions of reality and these hard

514
00:20:16,149 --> 00:20:12,960
lines between objective and subjective

515
00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:16,159
and between material versus energetic

516
00:20:20,789 --> 00:20:18,240
end up abandoning their research

517
00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:20,799
altogether when they come across such

518
00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:23,200
seemingly contradictory data but it's

519
00:20:27,669 --> 00:20:25,280
not that the data is contradictory it's

520
00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:27,679
that our notions of reality our notions

521
00:20:34,950 --> 00:20:31,360
of beingness are incomplete insufficient

522
00:20:36,789 --> 00:20:34,960
sometimes wholly incorrect a lesson we

523
00:20:39,350 --> 00:20:36,799
need to learn here is when the data

524
00:20:42,149 --> 00:20:39,360
reveals time and time again when you

525
00:20:44,710 --> 00:20:42,159
look at it objectively that somehow

526
00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:44,720
these entities can be both

527
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:48,480
subjective objective physical energetic

528
00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:50,400
and that they can interact with people

529
00:20:55,430 --> 00:20:52,480
in the physical realm and leave physical

530
00:20:58,390 --> 00:20:55,440
traces radar returns soil samples

531
00:21:01,029 --> 00:20:58,400
markings on people's body etc but that

532
00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:01,039
they can also show up in people's dreams

533
00:21:06,070 --> 00:21:03,760
and impact their consciousness directly

534
00:21:07,750 --> 00:21:06,080
that somehow this is the larger picture

535
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:07,760
of reality we need to be paying

536
00:21:11,029 --> 00:21:09,120
attention to

537
00:21:12,149 --> 00:21:11,039
it's the larger picture of reality that

538
00:21:14,310 --> 00:21:12,159
we need to

539
00:21:17,350 --> 00:21:14,320
reference when we structure our new

540
00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:17,360
conceptions of ultimate reality

541
00:21:22,630 --> 00:21:19,440
now let's move on to a discussion of

542
00:21:25,110 --> 00:21:22,640
ontology now what is ontology

543
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:25,120
in brief ontology is a branch of

544
00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:28,480
philosophy and a science of what is and

545
00:21:33,909 --> 00:21:31,600
of the kinds and structures of objects

546
00:21:36,390 --> 00:21:33,919
in simple terms ontology seeks the

547
00:21:37,909 --> 00:21:36,400
classification and explanation of

548
00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:37,919
entities

549
00:21:43,430 --> 00:21:40,400
ontology ultimately concerns claims

550
00:21:45,830 --> 00:21:43,440
about the nature of being an existence

551
00:21:47,669 --> 00:21:45,840
and you see ontological concerns are

552
00:21:50,549 --> 00:21:47,679
front and center when it comes to the

553
00:21:53,110 --> 00:21:50,559
ufo phenomenon and all anomalous

554
00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:53,120
investigations because so often we come

555
00:21:57,669 --> 00:21:55,600
down to trying to answer the question

556
00:21:59,830 --> 00:21:57,679
are they real and in what way are they

557
00:22:02,070 --> 00:21:59,840
real and as i've already pointed out

558
00:22:04,789 --> 00:22:02,080
often this merely shines a light on the

559
00:22:07,830 --> 00:22:04,799
fact that our conceptions are faulty or

560
00:22:10,070 --> 00:22:07,840
at least gravely incomplete

561
00:22:12,310 --> 00:22:10,080
with that said now let's move on to a

562
00:22:14,230 --> 00:22:12,320
discussion of the different kinds of

563
00:22:16,789 --> 00:22:14,240
groups or different categories we can

564
00:22:18,549 --> 00:22:16,799
use to make sense of the broad

565
00:22:20,630 --> 00:22:18,559
assortment of entities that are

566
00:22:23,830 --> 00:22:20,640
encountered and have been encountered

567
00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:23,840
across the course of human history

568
00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:25,200
now there are different ways you can

569
00:22:29,029 --> 00:22:26,720
think about the different kinds of

570
00:22:30,870 --> 00:22:29,039
groups that are encountered

571
00:22:34,630 --> 00:22:30,880
for instance graham hancock has

572
00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:34,640
identified fairies aliens and spirits as

573
00:22:39,990 --> 00:22:37,440
his sort of three meta categories which

574
00:22:42,630 --> 00:22:40,000
he uses to make sense of these others

575
00:22:45,350 --> 00:22:42,640
these non-human intelligences that human

576
00:22:47,510 --> 00:22:45,360
beings have contacted over the course of

577
00:22:51,190 --> 00:22:47,520
our history going of course well back

578
00:22:53,110 --> 00:22:51,200
into the depth of even human prehistory

579
00:22:55,110 --> 00:22:53,120
now of those three groups that hancock

580
00:22:58,230 --> 00:22:55,120
identified which again were fairies

581
00:23:00,630 --> 00:22:58,240
aliens and spirits as three broad brush

582
00:23:02,870 --> 00:23:00,640
categories we can think of those being

583
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:02,880
assigned to three different domains

584
00:23:08,789 --> 00:23:06,240
fairy galactic and celestial so let's

585
00:23:11,430 --> 00:23:08,799
break that down a little bit the fairy

586
00:23:13,669 --> 00:23:11,440
or the fey are these kinds of entities

587
00:23:16,390 --> 00:23:13,679
that seem to bridge this line between

588
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:16,400
physical and not they exist in our world

589
00:23:21,430 --> 00:23:18,960
but only sometimes you can think of them

590
00:23:23,750 --> 00:23:21,440
as being interdimensional in a way but

591
00:23:25,350 --> 00:23:23,760
it's not just that they necessarily pop

592
00:23:27,750 --> 00:23:25,360
in and out of a different dimension and

593
00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:27,760
then come into ours and are physical in

594
00:23:32,710 --> 00:23:30,080
one and then physical than another but

595
00:23:35,029 --> 00:23:32,720
rather that their very modality changes

596
00:23:37,590 --> 00:23:35,039
so that they may be in a way here all

597
00:23:39,750 --> 00:23:37,600
along but their modality shifts so we

598
00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:39,760
become aware of them only on certain

599
00:23:45,190 --> 00:23:42,720
occasions and only when certain criteria

600
00:23:46,789 --> 00:23:45,200
that are as of yet not well understood

601
00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:46,799
are met

602
00:23:51,269 --> 00:23:49,200
then you have the galactic domain now

603
00:23:53,350 --> 00:23:51,279
clearly here we're thinking about outer

604
00:23:55,669 --> 00:23:53,360
space we're thinking about entities that

605
00:23:58,549 --> 00:23:55,679
are connected to planets within solar

606
00:24:00,789 --> 00:23:58,559
systems within galaxies any kind of

607
00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:00,799
extraterrestrial entity is going to fall

608
00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:02,880
into the galactic category

609
00:24:07,590 --> 00:24:04,960
and then finally we had that celestial

610
00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:07,600
category and this relates to what i call

611
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:10,240
the extra dimensional category or the

612
00:24:15,269 --> 00:24:12,480
category of beings who are coming from

613
00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:15,279
outside a space-time construct

614
00:24:18,710 --> 00:24:16,480
altogether

615
00:24:20,470 --> 00:24:18,720
they don't arise from a certain planet

616
00:24:23,029 --> 00:24:20,480
in a certain solar system in some

617
00:24:25,110 --> 00:24:23,039
far-flung galaxy they don't exist within

618
00:24:26,710 --> 00:24:25,120
the space-time construct as we conceive

619
00:24:30,070 --> 00:24:26,720
of it at all

620
00:24:32,470 --> 00:24:30,080
angels demons and dorothy isaac's light

621
00:24:34,070 --> 00:24:32,480
beings you can assign to this category

622
00:24:36,230 --> 00:24:34,080
celestial

623
00:24:38,390 --> 00:24:36,240
so that gives us three broad brush

624
00:24:40,390 --> 00:24:38,400
categories that we can think of as we

625
00:24:43,029 --> 00:24:40,400
make sense of what's going on in terms

626
00:24:46,390 --> 00:24:43,039
of the plethora of entities that human

627
00:24:48,470 --> 00:24:46,400
beings have encountered over time so so

628
00:24:51,350 --> 00:24:48,480
far we've been talking about different

629
00:24:53,830 --> 00:24:51,360
kinds of evidence that we might count in

630
00:24:56,470 --> 00:24:53,840
terms of understanding what's going on

631
00:24:58,630 --> 00:24:56,480
with all anomalous experience

632
00:25:01,029 --> 00:24:58,640
now something that's part of my history

633
00:25:03,990 --> 00:25:01,039
that's been hugely helpful for me in

634
00:25:06,149 --> 00:25:04,000
terms of making sense of all this data

635
00:25:11,430 --> 00:25:06,159
is integral theory

636
00:25:13,669 --> 00:25:11,440
wikipedia it is quote can wilbur's

637
00:25:16,549 --> 00:25:13,679
attempt to place a wide diversity of

638
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:16,559
theories and thinkers into one single

639
00:25:19,350 --> 00:25:17,600
framework

640
00:25:22,149 --> 00:25:19,360
it is portrayed as a theory of

641
00:25:25,430 --> 00:25:22,159
everything the living totality of matter

642
00:25:27,269 --> 00:25:25,440
body mind soul and spirit

643
00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:27,279
trying to draw together an already

644
00:25:31,269 --> 00:25:29,520
existing number of separate paradigms

645
00:25:34,390 --> 00:25:31,279
into an interrelated network of

646
00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:34,400
approaches that are mutually enriching

647
00:25:38,630 --> 00:25:36,000
unquote

648
00:25:41,669 --> 00:25:38,640
now ken wilbur famously said quote

649
00:25:45,029 --> 00:25:41,679
i have one major rule everybody is right

650
00:25:47,510 --> 00:25:45,039
more specifically everybody including me

651
00:25:49,669 --> 00:25:47,520
has some important pieces of truth and

652
00:25:51,830 --> 00:25:49,679
all of those pieces need to be honored

653
00:25:54,549 --> 00:25:51,840
cherished and included in a more

654
00:25:57,350 --> 00:25:54,559
gracious spacious and compassionate

655
00:25:59,029 --> 00:25:57,360
embrace unquote

656
00:26:00,710 --> 00:25:59,039
that's really the way i look at it that

657
00:26:02,950 --> 00:26:00,720
when you look at religious history when

658
00:26:05,510 --> 00:26:02,960
you look at indigenous cultures history

659
00:26:07,190 --> 00:26:05,520
when you look at the rise of science and

660
00:26:09,510 --> 00:26:07,200
the enlightenment and all these

661
00:26:11,669 --> 00:26:09,520
different historical events and

662
00:26:13,909 --> 00:26:11,679
different people groups around the world

663
00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:13,919
if certain conceptions of reality were

664
00:26:17,909 --> 00:26:15,760
working for those people it's very

665
00:26:20,070 --> 00:26:17,919
likely that there was something to it

666
00:26:23,029 --> 00:26:20,080
that it may not be complete it's almost

667
00:26:25,830 --> 00:26:23,039
always partial but it is a piece of the

668
00:26:27,269 --> 00:26:25,840
puzzle as ken wilbur is pointing to here

669
00:26:29,990 --> 00:26:27,279
and the only way we're going to

670
00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:30,000
construct a comprehensive reality

671
00:26:34,710 --> 00:26:32,320
large enough deep enough to make sense

672
00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:34,720
of this phenomenon is if we try to bring

673
00:26:39,909 --> 00:26:37,520
together all of these diverse aspects

674
00:26:42,630 --> 00:26:39,919
all of these diverse conceptions into

675
00:26:44,789 --> 00:26:42,640
some overarching meta conception that in

676
00:26:46,230 --> 00:26:44,799
a nutshell is the point of integral

677
00:26:48,310 --> 00:26:46,240
theory

678
00:26:50,710 --> 00:26:48,320
now one of the key aspects of integral

679
00:26:52,310 --> 00:26:50,720
theory that i so appreciate is its

680
00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:52,320
understanding that there are multiple

681
00:26:57,029 --> 00:26:54,960
domains that we need to pay attention to

682
00:26:58,950 --> 00:26:57,039
that we need a non-reductive

683
00:27:01,669 --> 00:26:58,960
understanding of reality model of

684
00:27:03,510 --> 00:27:01,679
reality to make sense of the totality of

685
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:03,520
what people experience

686
00:27:07,510 --> 00:27:04,960
and what you find with the different

687
00:27:09,830 --> 00:27:07,520
hypotheses that tend to be postulated

688
00:27:11,669 --> 00:27:09,840
put forward to explain the phenomenon

689
00:27:13,510 --> 00:27:11,679
often you'll see people focusing on one

690
00:27:15,909 --> 00:27:13,520
of those domains while ignoring the

691
00:27:17,830 --> 00:27:15,919
others sometimes people outright don't

692
00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:17,840
even believe that the other domains are

693
00:27:23,269 --> 00:27:20,480
actually quote unquote real and so they

694
00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:23,279
don't quote unquote count but again i

695
00:27:28,230 --> 00:27:25,600
think that's a faulty understanding that

696
00:27:30,389 --> 00:27:28,240
is nearsightedness to the extreme

697
00:27:32,149 --> 00:27:30,399
there are multiple domains in play here

698
00:27:34,870 --> 00:27:32,159
and the only way we're going to make

699
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:34,880
sense of the totality of the phenomena

700
00:27:39,830 --> 00:27:37,200
that are observed and the totality of

701
00:27:41,830 --> 00:27:39,840
the different intelligences and entities

702
00:27:44,230 --> 00:27:41,840
that are encountered is if we weave

703
00:27:47,029 --> 00:27:44,240
together a tapestry that includes

704
00:27:49,110 --> 00:27:47,039
various hypotheses because again

705
00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:49,120
different aspects of reality different

706
00:27:54,070 --> 00:27:51,520
entities different origin stories are

707
00:27:56,149 --> 00:27:54,080
involved here only by combining all of

708
00:27:58,389 --> 00:27:56,159
that complexity do you end up with a

709
00:28:00,549 --> 00:27:58,399
narrative that gets close to describing

710
00:28:02,870 --> 00:28:00,559
what we're talking about here

711
00:28:04,950 --> 00:28:02,880
now in terms of the different hypotheses

712
00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:04,960
put forward to explain the ufo

713
00:28:08,149 --> 00:28:06,240
phenomenon

714
00:28:11,029 --> 00:28:08,159
there are many perhaps more than you're

715
00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:11,039
even aware of now next week we will dive

716
00:28:15,990 --> 00:28:13,440
back into this topic picking up where we

717
00:28:18,549 --> 00:28:16,000
leave off today and will address each of

718
00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:18,559
those hypotheses and how they may each

719
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:21,120
capture part of the totality we're

720
00:28:25,590 --> 00:28:23,360
observing because again only by

721
00:28:27,430 --> 00:28:25,600
combining all of them do we end up with

722
00:28:29,110 --> 00:28:27,440
something resembling what's actually

723
00:28:30,630 --> 00:28:29,120
being observed

724
00:28:33,269 --> 00:28:30,640
as i've been saying throughout this

725
00:28:36,070 --> 00:28:33,279
podcast episode one has to at least

726
00:28:38,149 --> 00:28:36,080
attempt to keep all of this complexity

727
00:28:40,549 --> 00:28:38,159
loosely in mind when trying to make

728
00:28:42,710 --> 00:28:40,559
sense of this phenomenon when trying to

729
00:28:45,909 --> 00:28:42,720
piece together patterns that may exist

730
00:28:47,990 --> 00:28:45,919
in the data and importantly one has to

731
00:28:50,070 --> 00:28:48,000
be able to maintain the position of a

732
00:28:52,870 --> 00:28:50,080
student throughout

733
00:28:54,710 --> 00:28:52,880
certainty is the death knell not only of

734
00:28:56,389 --> 00:28:54,720
a spirit of adventure which i would

735
00:28:58,789 --> 00:28:56,399
argue is more important and more

736
00:29:00,389 --> 00:28:58,799
essential to feeling alive than most

737
00:29:03,190 --> 00:29:00,399
people realize

738
00:29:06,549 --> 00:29:03,200
but also to any hope of making progress

739
00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:06,559
amidst this expansive and ever expanding

740
00:29:11,909 --> 00:29:09,200
wondrous complexity that ultimately

741
00:29:13,590 --> 00:29:11,919
encompasses the very tapestry of all

742
00:29:16,310 --> 00:29:13,600
that is

743
00:29:19,590 --> 00:29:16,320
as zen buddhist teacher shunru suzuki

744
00:29:22,549 --> 00:29:19,600
famously observed quote if your mind is

745
00:29:25,190 --> 00:29:22,559
empty it is always ready for anything it

746
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:25,200
is open to everything in the beginner's

747
00:29:31,750 --> 00:29:27,600
mind there are many possibilities but in

748
00:29:33,990 --> 00:29:31,760
the expert's mind there are few unquote

749
00:29:35,830 --> 00:29:34,000
and on that note we've come to the close

750
00:29:37,590 --> 00:29:35,840
of another edition of the point of

751
00:29:39,430 --> 00:29:37,600
convergence podcast

752
00:29:41,630 --> 00:29:39,440
if you'd like to support this podcast

753
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:41,640
you can do so by going to

754
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:43,200
patreon.com

755
00:29:47,750 --> 00:29:45,600
exo academian but until we pick it up

756
00:29:49,269 --> 00:29:47,760
again next time friends from deep within

757
00:29:52,549 --> 00:29:49,279
the blue ridge mountains of north

758
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:52,559
carolina this is exo academian signing